Dirty Chain Podcast Episode 29: Holden Comeau Zwift National Champion

Dirty Chain Podcast Episode 29: Holden Comeau Zwift National Champion

Trevor Gibney:

Now Sheldon, if I was going to ask you one of the top reasons to train on an indoor trainer with something like the Zwift, what would you think one of the top reasons to use Zwift would be?

Trevor Gibney:

... enough reasons to use Zwift would be,

Holden Comeau:

I would say, being that we're Michiganders, to stay out of the cold.

Trevor Gibney:

Okay. Stay out of the cold. I think that's a good point.

Holden Comeau:

Convenience.

Trevor Gibney:

Convenience.

Holden Comeau:

You can ride safe at night without worrying about getting hit by a car.

Trevor Gibney:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Holden Comeau:

A Zwift crash in a race is a little safer as they don't exist.

Trevor Gibney:

These are all great points. I mean, before I went in this conversation with Holden Comeau, I kind of viewed Zwift as an alternative to riding outside, but all in all using it as a tool to eventually get outside, right? That's kind of how you would see Zwift.

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. It's just another form of training that you can implement at home.

Trevor Gibney:

Holden describes kind of a whole different perspective on this. Not using Zwift as a means to an end to get outside, but using Zwift as the end, as the main source for his racing, for his training, et cetera. And I thought that was just a really cool perspective, and a cool way to look at what Zwift can be for not only him, but for so many people. Holden takes us through his progression as an athlete from swimmer to professional triathletes, and now to surprisingly a Zwift racer. He talks a little bit about the techniques he uses within Zwift and also within his bike setup, trainer set up, and he shares a little bit about what the future might hold for Zwift and indoor racing. Ladies and gentlemen, Holden Comeau.

Trevor Gibney:

How has this whole thing thrown a wrench into your, I guess your whole life, I mean, in terms of training and then just your regular day job? Are you usually pretty flexible or has this whole quarantine thing kind of made you be even more flexible?

Holden Comeau:

Wait a second. Before I answer that, and I'll go into detail, it sounds to me as though we're already on the record and recording. Is that true?

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah, we won't have like a, "And now joining us is..." We don't do those kind of things.

Holden Comeau:

Got it. Just wanted to understand the format now. It was all working.

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah, for sure.

Holden Comeau:

No, it's all good. The reason I have been able to do what I've done with Zwift racing is uniquely because it fits so well into my life. It's interesting because that is in stark contrast to how I have historically worked sport into my life. When I was still at this, my third athletic career, I was swimmer through college, then triathlete. And in both of those first two instances, athletics were sort of central to my life. Everything revolved around athletics, and now it's completely different. I have a family. I started a business eight years ago. Those things are definitely the priority and everything else sort of revolves around that or sport at least revolves around that. It's sort of a secondary thing.

Holden Comeau:

I guess what I'm getting at, it's like, I think that's the way to be at your best. I think that was the mistake I'd always made before, where I had given so much and made so many sacrifices because sport was always the priority. I neglected all the other things that make life amazing before. I think that actually, although I was well-intentioned in trying to be the best athlete I could be, I think ultimately that made me- I just it wasn't as optimized then.

Holden Comeau:

Now because my life has so much more and sport is this extra thing, I think the irony in that is that I feel as though I've never been as good of an athlete. I mean, it's not even a subjective sense that I've never been as good of an athlete, I've got hard data. I'm stronger than I've ever been on the bike. It's kind of amazing. How I've worked racing into my life, I guess, it's like I only had the mornings before the kids wake up to do a workout. It's the only time I could consistently have to myself to actually go do some type of workout. I just started doing that on Zwift, like three years ago. And it was only in the winter. Whenever it was warm enough, I would run outside. I was really running all the time forever. When I retired from triathlon, that was like eight years ago, 10 years ago, maybe, I had only been running primarily. It was like six years of running and then I discovered Zwift and Zwift in the winter. I stopped running-

Trevor Gibney:

Like most people.

Holden Comeau:

[crosstalk 00:30:41] in the morning. Right. You know, cause I don't want to go outside. The first year I think of Zwift, I wasn't really into the races. I was sort of just poking around and going after like KLMs here and there. But then I discovered the racing thing, and I guess for two seasons, I was not affiliated with any group or team the sort of going out solo and joining races. I would follow the KISS racing team around, which is one of the largest teams regionally, and wherever those guys would race, I would just follow them into those races. And then leading into last year, I joined this team formerly known as Indoor Specialist Team formed and kind of went from there. But really it hasn't required too much of a sacrifice or disruption to the rest of my life. Occasionally there'll be like a Pro-Am race that I'm in, that is held or scheduled in the afternoon, because usually like around two, three o'clock in the afternoon is when they can fit in the most time zones, realistically. 2:00, 3:00 East Coast Time. Occasionally that would happen and I would just sort of schedule those days around my work day. But for the most part, it's just early morning races before the kids wake up, then I'm done.

Trevor Gibney:

So it hasn't really changed. I mean, even though you've been at it for three years, and then you've started to competitively race pretty seriously, it hasn't really changed a lot in terms of time commitment. Is that what you're telling me?

Holden Comeau:

Yeah, I don't think so. I would say that probably, I feel like the extra time I've put in is sort of immaterial. That's sort of relative. I probably am doing like an hour or two more per week than I did three years ago on the bike, just because there's just more time to race, and really I just enjoy it. But it's, you know, I think I probably, I haven't looked at my training time at least lately, but definitely average under 10 hours a week, probably eight, eight to 10 hours of total ride time every week. So it's not like a crazy amount. Yeah.

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah. You hit a lot of this stuff right out the bat that I wanted to ask you about, like how you got into it and kind of what the introduction, or what drove you into indoor training, which sounds like convenience. And that's what we hear from so many people is a Zwift or, or Train or Road or whatever, anything on the indoors is a lot more convenient for everyone. So whether that's because of weather or because of family situations, and it sounds like it continues to be convenient for you even though you're racing at a pretty high level.

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. I mean, that definitely was a big part of the introduction for me. I think the reason why I continue with it and maybe I qualify like the motivation now to keep on going at the level that I am going, because it doesn't feel difficult for me at all to make the kind of commitment that I'm making. And I think probably for some riders who are thinking about racing at the top tier of Zwift racing, that could be kind of a challenge if you don't totally love it or if you are coming at it from this perspective of like, this is something that I'm, that I do out of just convenience, but I also love to ride my bike outdoors and I've got an outdoor season that I contest every year. For me, I don't really care about doing anything other than riding on Zwift. That I don't have any ambitions to ever race outside. I'm not really interested in doing anything like that. It's convenient, but I'm also undistracted and don't have anything else that I'm super interested in. I think that's been a big component of what's sort of allowed me to rise up into the top tier into a lot of success. I don't have anything else.

Trevor Gibney:

So that is a question, though, because for so many people, especially right now, Zwift is the only option. And it is a convenience thing and it is a, "Well, I don't have anything else to do. So I guess I'll do Zwift." But for you, this was something that you were doing before you were forced to, and it is something that excites you and keeps your interest. And this might be too hard of a question to answer, but what is it about Zwift that keeps you interested and keeps you motivated?

Holden Comeau:

I love that question. I'd probably go into depth and like talk forever about why it's kind of perfect for me and my personality. I think just like if I were to bullet point that answer, I would say I've always liked to play video games and that aspect of it just really resonates. If you're a video gamer, I'm sure you people would understand this. When you're playing video games, there's a sense of mastery and improvement almost as though you're sort of putting some puzzle pieces together and you're learning how to play the game and get better at it. And that comes with experience and the sort of just like stepping stones in video games that allow you to measure your progress really quickly.

Holden Comeau:

And Zwift is no different. That video game aspect, the feedback that you get that tells you that you are actually getting better at playing the video game has been something that I've been attracted to the past playing other video games and definitely is part of why I stay focused on Zwift, just 'cause I enjoy it. I enjoy the video game piece of it. I think a lot of that also connects to what it means to be an athlete. I've been doing that my whole life trying to improve upon things. So that translates to the video game piece, athletic mindset. That's the piece that gets me. I think professionally speaking, what I do in my career, I run a data analytics company, I'm the Chief Technology Officer. I deal with data and analysis all day long. There's a ton of data, interesting performance data attached to Zwift that I love to look at and understand.

Holden Comeau:

So I think that professional connection, that was part of why I discovered Zwift actually, from professional reasons. My business partner introduced me into the platform from a data perspective. So that's there that kind of keeps my focus. The comradery of being on a team is one of those bullets. My teammates are incredible. I've met three- that's not true- I met four of the guys on my team in real life. One of them I know fairly well, but only because I knew him from back in the day when he was triathlete. Three of the other guys I'd never met before joining the team and I've subsequently met, but only once in person. The rest of the guys, I don't know. There's 13 of us on the team and it's funny, it's like I would consider all of them to be my closest friends right now.

Holden Comeau:

So really random that, that I have these really close friends who have never met in person, but because we spend such an intimate moment together almost every day, racing our bikes and talking to each other because we communicate and talk on a chat server, voice chat. And then we spend all day long texting in a group, chat with each other. They're all really close friends and they keep me motivated. And that's an interesting, unique thing. I would say that I hadn't had that comradery in my life prior to Zwift. You know, the last time I was part of a team that had so many close, supportive friends was when I was in college, on a swim team, and ever since then I've had close friends, but not that type of like like-minded community who we're all collectively trying to do something to support each other. And it's just, that's a big part of what keeps me going for sure.

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah. Can we back up a little bit? You've you've mentioned swimming and triathlons. Can you just kind of tell us a little bit about your background in athletics?

Holden Comeau:

Yeah, so I started as a swimmer. I came into swimming a little bit late for elite level swimmers. I really sort of bloomed as a swimmer in my sophomore, junior year in high school. And that's a little late. I think typically elite swimmers start when they're much younger and they're sort of on that sport path for a while. But I think that's relevant that I started so late because I think that's why I ultimately finished swimming and then was eager to keep going after that. I look at a lot of my peers who I swam with. And I think the persona of a college athlete in general is sort of one where if you're not coming out of college and you don't have a career as a pro, you're sort of beat down and that's like the end of things, because you've put so much into it and you're so tired and there's no more future opportunities.

Holden Comeau:

But that wasn't the case for me. I came out of college and I definitely had this feeling like I want to keep going with sport, but I ran out of options in swimming. I went to the Olympic trials. So I swam at Penn state. I was NCL American three times. I was the captain of the team my senior year, and then went to Olympic trials the summer after my senior year. So sort of in two thousands was as time sort of perfectly that, that the peak of my collegiate swimming career as a senior then finished my collegiate swimming, went to Olympic trials, right after that in 2000. I finished like 35th in the 200 freestyle, which in my event had to be top six to make the Olympic team. So that was it. I think Phelps went to the Olympics that year. I think he was like 14 and, and he swam one event, but that's relevant because it was pre-Phelps, which meant that if you didn't make the Olympic team before Mike Phelps came along there wasn't anywhere to go.

Holden Comeau:

You weren't going to be a pro swimmer, but that has sort of changed now. So he brought so much more attention to popularity where I think had I done what I had done then, and it was now, I think I could've kept going as a swimmer maybe, but that wasn't available then. So I transitioned. I took like a year and a half off, met my wife, my girlfriend. She got into grad school in New York, so we moved to New York city and lived there for awhile and basically took a year and a half of doing nothing after swimming, and then discovered triathlon while I was living in New York and was immediately hooked on that. I think mostly I was hooked on triathlon just because it let me keep on swimming. And I went to my first triathlon, and I hadn't even ridden a bike before. This guy I met loaned me a bike and it totally did not fit me at all. I had no idea what I was doing on it.

Trevor Gibney:

Wait, you hadn't ridden even before you raced on it?

Holden Comeau:

Yeah, I got it that day, or the day before he brought it. I mean, I knew how to ride a bike, but wasn't, it wasn't a TT bike. It was just a road bike. So it's like, I could figure it out. I crushed the swim. I had prepped. I had gotten back in swim shape when I was in New York. Nothing like from in college, but I went to this triathlon and triathletes are historically not known for their swimming ability. Right. I thought it was tough shit, crushed the swim, beat everyone on the water by a couple of minutes. And you know, it was taking my time to the first transition and figuring out how to get on the bike. I made it out of transition, but mile one, all the TT guys came flying by and the rest of the day that I was hooked on that.

Holden Comeau:

And I think three-way, I approached triathlon in, in from that initial, like motivation to enter triathlon because it allowed me to keep swimming that I kept that retain that spirit. I think through my triathlon career I always identified as a swimmer even as I progressed in triathlon I definitely over the years got pretty good at riding the bike. I got much stronger. I rode and trained with a bunch of cyclists around Philly. So I definitely got that introduction to cycling and got pretty good at running. I never really came into my own with, but through all of that, I still maintained that swimmer identity. It's still a big part of who I wasn't that ultimate. That really is honestly, it's not how to be the best triathlete. You can't hang onto that single sport identity too much, because it's just not the way to do it.

Holden Comeau:

Especially if you're single sport identity is swimming. It just doesn't really have an impact on the triathlon. It was a fun triathlon. I was a pro. I think got a pro license for eight years. After that first triathlon that I rented or borrowed a bike. I finished, I was pissed off that I got beat. And I remember talking to my wife, I was like, I'm doing this, I'm going to be a pro. And it was like, right from the beginning, I knew that it was something I wanted to dive into. So I turned pro maybe a year later. So a little bit later in response, we never really got a few sponsorships along the way. And ultimately never really resonated. I never felt like a triathlete, I guess. Maybe because I was still identifying as a swimmer.

Holden Comeau:

I just never really got into it too much. And I never, there's just something about it. I think at the time athletically, I just didn't feel as though I was very good at it. And I mean, now hindsight's 2020, given what I've discovered now, racing on Zwift, that I'm a sprinter. That's the key to my success. Why I'm good at Zwift is because I can sprint really well. Anything up to one minute around a minute effort is like what I'm great at. That makes sense, given my background as a swimmer, because that's sort of what I did, that was the effort I put in swimming. A triathlon was like forcing me to do everything I wasn't good at, like long, low threshold below threshold work. And it just never really collected, but I didn't know it at the time. I just was the sense where I wasn't being like my best athletic self through triathlon. And that just always was frustrating to me.

Trevor Gibney:

Fast forwarding then, as you discovered Zwift, and this was a question I had is I couldn't help, but realize that there are these stark differences between a triathlon. Which distances were you doing? Like Olympic distance or for triathlons?

Holden Comeau:

In triathlon? I did them all. I started in Olympic distance and then went up to Ironman. I tried everything. I think I was probably best at the Olympic.

Trevor Gibney:

Okay. I guess you would call them endurance events, correct? Maybe Olympics a little shorter, but Ironman is definitely an endurance event. Now on Zwift, I feel like some of these races are more like crits, the kind of power you're putting out, at threshold or beyond threshold the entire time. And you said that's kind of like what was a journey of self-discovery for you in terms of how you are as an athlete. Did you have to like totally change your training in terms of this is what I'm training for? Or was it just a, "Oh, this is who I am as an athlete, as I'm starting to race on Zwift."

Holden Comeau:

I think it's the latter. I discovered who I am as an athlete. Whereas triathlon was trying to train myself to be something that I was not it's this long distance endurance athlete. I think there are certain things that I gained from that triathlon experience that are now relevant to Zwift. Ultimately it was something that I was never going to be a stellar long distance athlete. The Zwift effort is very similar to swim training.

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:50:04]

Holden Comeau:

... similar to swim training, not swim racing, but swim training. The workouts that I would go through for swimming were an hour and a half of super high intensity intervals every single day, sometimes multiple times per day, with a couple hours rest in between. And when you got done with a single workout, you felt as though you could barely get out of the pool and you could barely walk. And then you recover for four hours, and then go do it again. And that is almost identical to what we do in Zwift racing. It's actually, Zwift racing is not as hard as swim training.

Holden Comeau:

The Zwift race is like 45 minute, it's under an hour typically. It's very rare that we go longer than an hour. And like you said, it's sort of like a crit. I've never raced a cyclo-cross race, but I hear that the effort's comparable. It's really punchy. If you have a great one minute to five minute effort in you, you're going to be great at Zwift. And if you can do a big sprint, you're going to be really good at Zwift. That's what it's all about.

Holden Comeau:

So the triathlon experience, I think was less relevant, even though it seems like it should be part of the Zwift success. It's not, at all. Other than triathlon sort of taught me how to ride with efficiency. So that's what I focus on. And particularly for being a sprinter, I'm never trying to go out and go as hard as I can in a Zwift race. I think some people do that. They try to compete and outwork the competition. And that just seems silly to me. So I'm always trying to go as easy as I can and then sprint or strategically go hard. And that to me, sort of feels like a triathlon thing. Because that's what triathlon's all about. You're trying to do as little effort as possible while going the fastest you can go. So, if triathlon taught me anything, it's that. And I've sort of synergized all of that into Zwift racing now.

Trevor Gibney:

So you start Zwifting, you start Zwift racing, and you get connected with a team. But then how does that develop into becoming the Zwift National Champion for 2019? You're the 2019 Zwift National Champion. I know a lot of people that Zwift race. But I don't know any Zwift National Champion. I do now. But how does that develop into that?

Holden Comeau:

So in 2018 Zwift held the first Zwift National Championships. And I did that race, and I was completely unprepared for it.

Trevor Gibney:

Now I don't mean to interrupt, but do you have to qualify? How did you even get into the initial race?

Holden Comeau:

Got it. Yeah. It was open. Open to everyone, open to anyone who Zwifts. And they just promoted it and announced when it was going to happen. They said, "Here's where it's going to be," in 2018. So I entered that race. And I hadn't really actually done a lot of racing prior to that. I just saw that it was there, jumped in it. And it was a course that went right up the volcano, really quickly. Within the first 10 minutes we went up the volcano, and there was a couple of laps of that. But I got dropped the first time up the volcano. And I was furious. I was like, "This is ridiculous. I got dropped in the national championships within the first 10 minutes."

Holden Comeau:

So I remember texting with a friend of mine right after it was over. How I was so pissed off that I went to the national championships and got dropped immediately. And I texted her and said, "Next year, I'm coming back and I'm going to win the national championships next year." And I did. It's so great. So funny. And it's funny, in 2019, I texted her immediately after it was over. And she remembered what I had texted her. It was really funny.

Holden Comeau:

But anyway, the second year, in 2019, it was sort of a similar situation. It's just Zwift hosted it, put it on, and promoted it. And it was open to everyone. So you could just join it. 2019 was a little bit bigger globally in that they had more countries participating and had a national championship in different countries. 2018, I want to say there was six different countries around the world who simultaneously on that same day held a national championship. 2019 expanded.

Holden Comeau:

And it was amazing. So it was just this open, promotional thing. I joined the Indoor Specialist Squad just a few weeks prior, really. I hadn't been on a team to date. And the national championships was one of our first biggest races together. We all were still sort of getting to know each other at the time. But we were predominantly an American team, most of the guys were Americans. So we got into the race, and we fielded one of the biggest teams in the race. So I think we just really had an advantage. We were all fairly experienced athletes, former pros, a lot of guys who had a lot of understanding around race tactics. And at that point we all raced on Zwift enough to be fairly well adept at how to race.

Holden Comeau:

So we just went into it, planned out the experience. And really our strategy was, since we were all getting to know each other, it wasn't like, "Holden is the sprinter, so we're going to work for Holden." I remember we had a Google Sheet going around, and everyone just wrote on the Google Sheet what our best move was, what our winningest move was, or what each person would want to do to try to win the race. And we all just went out and we all tried to win the race.

Holden Comeau:

So we all just had this sense of what each other was going to do and trying to support each other as best as we could. We had some guys who felt as though they could do an earlier break, do a big five minute effort. So they were going to try to get away with five minutes to go. Couple guys that wanted to do a long range sprint, like a minute bomb for the line. And that happened, they tried that in the race. And my best tactic was to sit and hope for a blob group sprint coming into the line. And that's ultimately how it played out. So I won it. It was cool.

Trevor Gibney:

Can I ask you about ZwiftPower a little bit? Were these national championships regulated under ZwiftPower as well? I'm not too familiar with ZwiftPower, how long that's been a thing.

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. So the results were... I think that actually the best way to define the first two national championships, 2018 and 2019, I would classify them as being like test championships for Zwift, almost like beta races. And they were trialing things out ultimately to get to where 2020 national championships are going to be, assuming that everything moves forward as planned post-COVID, if that day ever comes. The original plan was in 2020, there was going to be a more fully validated and sanctioned national championship that was then ultimately going to be a qualifier for world championships. And world championships in 2020 is going to be a UCI sanctioned race. And will literally award a rainbow jersey to the winner. So the first ever. And that's the structure that ultimately is planned now. In the future very much mimicking what happens in real life as you prepare for a national championships. Will likely be a qualification process to get into nationals. None of that's been announced yet, but 2018 and 2019 were just not as strict and sanctioned from that capacity.

Holden Comeau:

With the exception of there is some oversight. There's a group called ZADA, Z-A-D-A, which stands for Zwift Accuracy and Data. I'm not saying it right. Z-A-D. Zwift Accountability Data Accuracy. I don't know what it is. It's something like that. But they basically are a WADAesque regulatory board. They're separate from Zwift altogether. No one really knows who's on that board, at least from the racer community, we don't know who's a part of it. But after nationals, the podium winners plus two random riders are asked to submit lots of data and communicate information to this governing body called ZADA. They look through your data and ask you to do some tests, go outside and ride, try to prove yourself, go race, go try to set a Strava KOM outside, ride on a couple different power meters, try a different trainer, et cetera.

Holden Comeau:

So all of that happened after nationals last year. That actually took two months to go through. And that was the verification process. ZwiftPower is also a third party website from Zwift. They're very closely connected to Zwift. And there is some validation that happens through ZwiftPower, but more than anything, it's a Zwift race results database. So everything to do with your historic data is all aggregated in ZwiftPower. So it's the defacto results page. And it's less to do with verification.

Trevor Gibney:

So in terms of verification then, I guess in 2019 and now, what kind of extra gear or extra things do you need to be sure that you are verified?

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. It's funny. I was just this past week thinking about all of this because ZADA and Zwift has just recently updated their verification procedures, and they've gotten even more strict. I think our team has been really I think influential in trying to motivate the community to be more transparent with their performance verification efforts. So we proactively do as much as possible to be open and prove ourselves, so to speak. So what we do now, some of the things, we do a lot, we take live videos weighing ourselves, and there's a very specific protocol for how you do that. And that happens prior to every single sanctioned race that we do. So we shoot this live video and submit our weight. So that's a really important piece because weight doping on Zwift is a problem. If you enter the wrong weight, even by a couple pounds, it's going to really significantly have an influence. So we weigh ourselves all the time.

Holden Comeau:

We also will stream, live record, our races themselves. So while we're racing, we'll videotape ourselves doing the effort. So you can actually see us doing it. We also have at least two power meters that we ride with, one of them being a smart trainer and then another power meter that's on the bike, either pedals or crank based. And we record both of those power meters on two different devices. So it's like a dual or triple recording. And then that allows us to compare those two recordings to one another, just to double verify. So that's another thing.

Holden Comeau:

We have outdoor data, in real life data, that we go and put up certain thresholds, sprint effort outdoors, a one minute, a five minute, a 20 minute. Record that. And try to record them on Strava KOMs as well, outdoors whenever possible to compare ourselves to other riders. So we have all of that in real life data that we have. So it's not a one and done sort of thing where, "Here, we're verified." And there's just lots of ways, lots of things that we can do to help support this. It's not a perfect system by any means.

Holden Comeau:

Oh, the other piece is lab testing, which Brady did for me last year, which is great. So a lot of riders will go to a performance lab and get tested and do something like that. So really anything possible, we try to verify our performances, and it's tough.

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah. I'm assuming that both these national championships that you took part in, you did them from your house or you did them from home, right? You didn't go to a central location and everyone was riding a trainer. Is that correct?

Holden Comeau:

That is, yeah. Both the national championships I did from a basement, and that's pretty much where I do everything.

Trevor Gibney:

I've seen Zwift put... they would put on events where people would come to a central place and be riding in a room, but this is not one of these cases.

Holden Comeau:

It hasn't historically been that. Moving forward for national championships coming up, my understanding is that that'll change, and it'll be in a location where all riders are coming to one place and will be racing-

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah. And I guess that helps maybe oversee some of all these details and variables. I don't know. Would they put everyone on the same type of trainer? Would they put everyone on the same... using the same equipment to negate a lot of those variables?

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. I believe that's what the plan is. Have everyone in the same room riding on the same brand of gear to make it as even as possible.

Trevor Gibney:

Are you at all familiar or keeping up at all with some of the world tour virtual races that they... I know they did a Flanders and I think a Tour de Swiss, and they're on different platforms I know. I'm unsure if those are as serious or more so promotional races, but do you have any idea if they were going through the same list of criteria? Because I know that a lot of these people were just doing them, because they're quarantined, they're doing them in their living room or from wherever they were. I'm not sure if they had to go through the list of everything that you are.

Holden Comeau:

I would say, I'm not positive. I guess I won't comment. Because I don't know for sure what they were doing. I have a hard time imagining that they could be doing everything that we do because it took us three years to figure out all of this, to understand what was actually needed. So for teams and riders to be jumping on the platform right now, because it's opportunistic time, I have a hard time thinking that they're really digging in too deep into all that. But I don't know for sure.

Holden Comeau:

And ultimately it doesn't matter. It's awesome having all of these pro teams just ride and race. And I mean, we got invited to the Virtual Redlands Classic a couple weeks ago.

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah. I saw that.

Holden Comeau:

Okay. Yeah. I mean, that was incredible. We got to race all these in real life pro teams, and we were pretty excited going in. Because we sort of had a feeling that we were going to be able to beat up on them pretty good because they're all new to Zwift. And I think that they were just really underestimating how significant the video game skill component of racing Zwift is. I would say it's like 50% of performance on Zwift. It's nowhere near enough to just be strong on your bike and come and race on Zwift. You have to really understand how to play the game. And that just is something that takes a lot of time. So it's kind of fun having these guys come on and being able to be competitive with these in real life pros. I out-sprinted Mark Cavendish a couple months ago. It's like, "Come on. I shouldn't be out-sprinting him." But he has no idea how to play the game. You know? So it's kind of fun.

Trevor Gibney:

I mean, it is a game and tactics, but you have to give yourself a little bit of credit because... I was looking at the stats of when you sprinted for Redlands and you out-sprinted Corey Williams, who's a crit racer who's known for his big power. And it says you sustained 16 watts per kilogram for the winning attack, which is insane. So there is of course, you know the game, but then also you know where within the game that you can succeed.

Holden Comeau:

Racing against those guys, I had a pretty big sprint. It wasn't my best sprint, by any means. I've gone much harder before. But if you look at that race and you look at the results, and I'm saying this because it's kind of ridiculous to think that I can out-sprint Corey Williams. He's national champ and he's a sprinter, he races in crit. But if I went outside and tried to race him, there's no chance that I would beat him. But the same should be said, he's coming into my domain, and to think that he could out-sprint me is ridiculous. There's no chance.

Holden Comeau:

When I compare my results to his, I had a bigger sprint than him, but only because I was able to ride so much easier and conserve so much more than he did. My average watts per kilogram for the hour is just considerably lower than his. And that's just all has to do with my understanding of the game and the tactics. He had to work super hard for an hour. It was an hour race. So he was beating the hell out of himself for an hour. And I was able to just sit and chill until the last 15 seconds and then sprint. That really makes all the difference. I think that highlights just the importance of understanding the game and what you could do.

Holden Comeau:

On the one hand you look at those power differences and you say, "How can Holden, who's a 42 year old dad and runs an analytics company, who only races in the morning before his kids get up, how can he beat a national champion who's known as a sprinter?" And I think it's just for those reasons. It's only a matter of time. I hope Corey Williams and those other in real life pros, I hope they stick around and keep on riding on Zwift because I'm not going to be ranked number one for very much longer. As soon as those guys figure out how to just ride with some efficiency, they're going to be stomping all over [crosstalk 01:12:16]-

Trevor Gibney:

Is the efficiency as much to do with your knowledge and your experience, but also the fact that you're riding with a team equally as knowledgeable and experienced?

Holden Comeau:

Yep. And my teammates are doing everything they can, especially in that instance in Redlands. We had a very, very concise plan. We knew the course, the course was crit city. It almost always comes down to a pack sprint at the end, really difficult course for breakaway to happen. So we knew it was all going to stay together. Anytime it stays together, our best shot at winning is for me to win the sprint. So for the whole first hour, I had seven other guys, there were eight of us in the race. So all seven of my teammates were covering moves, trying to shut down attacks, and otherwise trying to keep the pace as slow as possible. When I can go easier, I'm going to have a bigger sprint on the end.

Holden Comeau:

So I was safe the whole time. I had two guys who were sort of marking me and staying close, just in case I needed a wheel or something. And a couple other guys were chasing down attacks anytime that happened. So we very much working as a team and talking on Discord the entire time. And it honestly wasn't a very difficult race for me. I was just sort of relaxed for an hour. And then I had to go hard for 15 seconds at the end. I think that that really is helpful. And there's no doubt that those pro teams, in real life pro teams, understand all those tactics. But I think executing those tactics in a virtual environment, it's not something that just immediately translates. It's something that takes some practice. And it's another one of those things. I'm sure they'll figure it out soon enough.

Trevor Gibney:

So how often, on a weekly basis... I know for Zwift you can race, I don't know, every hour on the hour, basically. How often in a weekly basis are you actually racing?

Holden Comeau:

So I only race. I don't do any training. If I do anything other than racing it's because I'm tired and need a rest day. So I'll do a recovery ride or something. But usually race, I would say, four to five times a week.

Trevor Gibney:

Holy [inaudible 00:01:14:59].

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. So it's all the time. I'm already.

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:15:04]

Holden Comeau:

Yeah, so it's all the time. I mean, I think I just broke 500 races. Yeah, I've done 504 races since I started three years ago. Last year I think I did almost 200 races. I won 100 races last year. So it's all the time. It's almost every day that it's racing. And yeah, and it's like you said, there's always something you can just jump on and do. And especially since the team is mostly American, or most of the guys on the team are either East Coast or Central Time Zone, so it's convenient enough for us all to race in the morning. And we also host races, we're the producers of races, and we just have gotten lucky that since we're on at that time in the mornings, the competition is pretty good. So some races are known and consistently week to week on the schedule, and they're more competitive than others. And so we sort of do the same races every week. The courses change and competitors come and go, but for the most part there's certain times and days of the week where we do certain races, and it stays pretty consistent that way. So, I mean, you can track your training effect in that, if I know what my general schedule is going to look like on a week to week basis, and manipulate a little bit when I feel like I need to go a little harder or go a little easier.

Trevor Gibney:

One thing I'm interested in is what now? I mean, you've talked a little bit about what the 2020 Zwift National Championship will look like, or leading up to a UCI World Championships, but just in terms of indoor racing and the indoor market, from your perspective, what do you see the future for this ... I guess I'll call it a market, or an opportunity. I mean, where do you see this going?

Holden Comeau:

I think it's going to be huge. And ultimately, I think it's going to be a really exciting and stimulating format for bike racing. I think it's going to be great for the sport of cycling in general. It's no different than how mountain biking is different than road biking is different than cyclocross, it's different than track. It's just a different discipline. And the format for how the race is experienced is so compelling, and so much more compelling than the traditional race format. I mean, it's certainly a unique experience to go to the Tour de France and spectate, or to spectate the Tour de France on TV. That's awesome. It's good media and it's a great experience. And mountain biking has some of that, and cyclocross certainly has its own sort of unique spectator experience.

Holden Comeau:

E-sports racing is really unique. It's got its own thing completely, and really compelling, in my opinion. There's a live experience that is amazing. I got to go see an in real life Zwift race. About a month or so after nationals last year Zwift had this promotion event in New York City, and there weren't a lot of spectators there, but that there was five pros up on stage racing. And they had a projector screen showing the coverage and there were other pros all around the world who were racing in that same race, so you had maybe 50 guys racing, five of those 50 were in the room with us. There was, I think, [inaudible 01:19:34] Armstrong was there, announcing some commentary on the race. It was all being produced in the room with us. And it was like a music concert, that's what it felt like. So imagine the experience of going to a music concert where you're literally ... like I was in the front row, looking up at these pro athletes who were beating the shit out of themselves on their bikes. I'd never seen a pro do that on their bike before, you could only see that on TV, and it's not the same experience.

Holden Comeau:

So a really compelling in real life experience athletic event. And then you combine that with what then can be amplified and the media that can be generated from that experience to be consumed by spectators. There's so much depth to how the sport can be experienced, and I there's no doubt in my mind that it's going to just really explode. I mean, another thing that's signaling towards the success of that is what's happening in other e-sports like traditional video games, where there's 16 year old kids who are pro gamers and they're superstars and make millions of dollars because they sell out arenas. And if a 16 year old no name kid can become like an e-sports phenom for playing Fortnite or whatever they play, think of what [inaudible 01:21:24] can do, sitting up on stage and seeing these Olympic athletes crushing in a virtual race. In my mind it's so much more compelling to see actual athletes doing their thing. It's an exciting prospect to me.

Holden Comeau:

So that's where I think it's going. I think there's going to be more in real life competition and the pros who are in the room contesting it are just going to become increasingly high profile. And I think there's going to be a huge industry behind it, so I think it's going to generate new revenues and sponsorship for the sport, and that just is going to be good for everyone. So yeah, I think that's on its way soon.

Trevor Gibney:

I see an interesting parallel between the growth of, say, gravel cycling, and the growth of indoor cycling. And maybe it's not so much in terms of the consumable experience, but more so the participating experience of the riders, and the fact that me, an amateur cyclist, can sign up for an A race on Zwift and be riding with Jeremiah Bishop or another pro. It's that I can participate in the same thing that everyone is participating in, and it's easier to be involved in that, and I don't have to have a USAC license, and I don't have to make sure that I'm catting up through the categories or whatever. It's just an easier experience to get into it. It's the same with gravel cycling. You just go to these events and you line up at the same line that Ted King lines up at.

Trevor Gibney:

And then also there's a huge safety aspect of it. And I know gravel has become so big right now because you're out on these roads where there's not a lot of traffic, and you have less of a chance of getting hit by a car, which is a very real issue right now. And you have virtually no chance of getting hit by a car when you're riding Zwift in your basement. And I think that's another big reason it's just kind of exploding.

Trevor Gibney:

One that you didn't bullet point or highlight, and I'm wondering as we kind of close as a last question, so I've been riding Zwift for two or three years, but always as a winter training program to get me outside. I've been forced now to use it more because all the races are non-existent, and I started Zwift racing for the first time just recently. And I was so surprised at how the competitive switch in my brain was turned on that I didn't expect, because I never used Zwift for competition before, it was only just for training. As soon as I started racing, boom, this is a competition, and it really has checked that box for me, as I'm not racing outside. And you gave a lot of bullet points why Zwift is perfect for you as an athlete, but one of the things you didn't say is it's very competitive. And it sounds like you are a very competitive person. Was that just assumed that, yes, this is a competition, or are you really motivated by competition, and is that pushing you along?

Holden Comeau:

It's interesting. I think I definitely am a competitive person. I think competition has become less important to me now that I'm an old man, the older I get. I mean, I've always been an athlete, and it's as you said, that competition is sort of an assumption, that it's there and it's part of the motivation. But one of the first things I was talking about was how sport fits into my life now. I think when I was swimming and when I was a triathlete, the focus on competition was really the only thing that I cared about. It was about the path to winning, always. And I don't have that same feeling anymore.

Holden Comeau:

It's definitely there, I guess, but I don't really think about it that much. And I definitely get pretty pissed off when I don't win something, especially when I feel like I should have, like where if I've made a mistake or if there's been an error, but I can't say that I wake up every morning and drag myself out of bed. I mean, I'm usually up at 4:30, 4:45, and then I go race at 5:30 or 5:15. And I don't get up that early to go hammer because I want to win races. That's not what it's about. I think it's insincere to a race and not try to win, that's the whole point of being there, and I like expect my competition to be doing the same. It's like, that's why we race. So I think there is an assumption that competition is a part of it. It's definitely not even close to being the motivator for me in the same way it was in the past.

Holden Comeau:

I think if it were absent though, there's no way I would be riding around on Zwift. I mean, the fact that that's there, the competitive element is there, is what allows me to do this and it sort of keeps my interest. So I guess from that perspective, it's important. I don't know, it's just it's odd, it's not the primary driver anymore, for me.

Trevor Gibney:

Sure, sure. Can you tell us real quick about the bike you ride? And I heard a story that you hold it down with weights so it doesn't move around. Can you tell us real quick about that?

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. And you know what? Just yesterday, actually, over the weekend, I built a frame for it, because I just got tired of it bouncing all around. Because yeah, it moves around a lot. So I've completely anchored it down to this big wooden frame now. But yeah, so I ride a [inaudible 01:28:24] direct drive trainer, which is awesome. I've been through a number of different trainer brands and I broke them all, they all broke. And I'm a bigger guy, but the equipment breaks mostly because it's still such a new sport, that equipment wasn't built with this sport in mind. The trainers were built to be these supplemental accessories to outdoor cycling. It's like people rode them and they did steady state intervals on them, they didn't sprint and try to kill themselves on their trainers.

Holden Comeau:

So the hardware just isn't there yet to support the type of competition that we're putting into it, with the exception of the [inaudible 00:14:12]. The [inaudible 01:29:10] is like a beast, it's really heavy, it's super well-built. So all ready out of the box, it's super strong, and it's really well suited for indoor sprinting, in my opinion. That's why I'm so attracted to it. And [inaudible 01:29:24] subsequently this is also a sponsor of my team, and that was kind of purposeful because we went around and found all these trainers that just were not capable of supporting what we were doing, with the exception of [inaudible 00:14:39]. So we all loved that [inaudible 01:29:40] and then ultimately went out and asked them to partner with us. And they've been an incredible partner of the teams, it's been great. So we ride the [inaudible 01:29:49] street trainer, and even though it's already heavy out of the box, I need some more weight to keep it down. So I've got over 100 pounds of dumbbells that I rest on the legs to try to keep it from moving, and even that isn't enough, literally. It still moves, and so I had to build this whole frame for it to lock it down in place.

Holden Comeau:

The bike itself, I've tried a couple of different frames. I thought for a bit that an aluminum frame would be more appropriate for indoors than a carbon because I didn't want to crack a carbon frame inside. I thought maybe aluminum would be a little bit better. But I couldn't have been more wrong. With the aluminum I bent the seat stay really quickly, and the carbon is much better, the carbon's been great. So I have an Argon 18 bike right now, and the team just formed a partnership with the Pros Closet. I'm going to be getting another bike pretty soon, I'm sort of going through a testing process to find a better bike. But yeah, it's indoors only, so I don't ever take it off the trainer and it doesn't have any brakes on it. It's got DI-2, so it makes it super easy to build up. And yeah. Yeah, it's fun.

Trevor Gibney:

What is your opinion on ... are they called rocker plates, or rocker-

Holden Comeau:

Yeah.

Trevor Gibney:

Yeah, what's your opinion there. I mean, it doesn't sound like something that you'd be interested in, but ...

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. So a couple of guys in my team have them and they swear by them. I actually have one, because [inaudible 01:31:38] makes one, and I've ridden it a couple of times, and it's a skill. You can't just hop on it and out of the gate ride it correctly. In fact, the default state, most people when they get on it, they ride it incorrectly and it's a significant power loss. But if you ride it long enough, you can figure out how to balance and time it so that you're putting cross directional torque into it, sort of, where you're pulling the bike towards you and sort of pulling your weight into that force so it's a counterbalance. And that takes a little skill to nail.

Holden Comeau:

So from that perspective, if you're racing on it, it's one more thing that you have to deliberately think about from a skill perspective in order to make sure you're doing it right. Otherwise it's going to come at a performance cost. A couple of the guys on my team have been riding it for two months now and they have said that they don't really even think about it anymore. They feel as though it might even be giving them a little advantage because they can get more power out of that cross leverage, the counterbalance from it. But yeah, I haven't really committed to it yet.

Trevor Gibney:

Sure, sure. So what's next for you? Is there a specific indoor season for you, or are you just ... I mean, I know you race basically every day, or four or five times a week; are you assuming that National Championships is going to happen and you're kind of working up towards that? Or what does the future hold for-

Holden Comeau:

Yeah. Yeah, I'm assuming the National Championships is still going to happen. I think there's probably maybe some modifications from it, but the last I've heard, there hasn't been an official announcement, but there have been some leaks that have suggested that it's going to be in the fall. The idea is that there'll be some sort of qualification process to actually get into the Nationals this year, so it's not just going to be an open free for all where anyone can race, it'll be you have to qualify to even get in. And then, after Nationals, depending on performance there, that's the path to World Championships. So that is on the back of my mind, and even though it hasn't been announced and I have no idea when it's going to be here, I'm just going to keep on going and try to keep on getting stronger and stronger until I hear about when that happens.

Holden Comeau:

In the meantime, where there's been a lot of new Pro-Am races that have been happening, and these are sanctioned races from Zwift, two tiers of racing. There's just the community racing where you can get on Zwift at any time and enter a race and you can race whenever you want. And then there's Pro-Am races that Zwift actually hosts and creates, and those are invite only. They have prize money and they only invite certain teams. And they're definitely promotional in nature, they broadcast them live and create a lot of media around them. But there's been a lot of those lately, at least one a month, I would say. They have those sometimes a lot more. There's a new series that's coming up, it's starting towards the end of this month, that I'll be in. So I'm going to do that. The Redlands Race falls into that category, and the promoters of the Redlands are going to be hosting a virtual tour of [inaudible 00:20:37]. That's going to be coming up later this month and I'm going to be in that.

Holden Comeau:

So just sort of responding to ... those are the priority races, the invite only Pro-Ams are definitely the anchors, the focus of our team. And then in the long-term we've got Nationals, World Champs, which hopefully I can keep on being competitive. I mean, how awesome would that be? To be at the World Championships? That would be incredible. I can't even imagine. That would just be a lot of fun. I would love to do that.

Trevor Gibney:

Well Holden, thank you so much for joining us, and your time, kind of giving us a little insight into Zwift racing and all of this. Super cool. I agree with you, I think that this has a lot of opportunity and potential. Well, it's already reached potential, but it just has a lot of opportunity for the future. And I think it's a real option for not just training, but for a lot of people to, like you, race at a super high level. So really appreciate this. Thank you so much.

Holden Comeau:

Thanks Trevor, this is great. I appreciate it. Good to chat with you.

Trevor Gibney:

The Dirty Chain podcast is a Michigan mid-pack media production, in partnership with KLM Cycling, the source for your bike accessories and necessities.

Speaker 2:

Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook at Dirty Chain Podcast. Email dirtychainpodcast@gmail.com, or call our hotline at (616) 522-2641.

Trevor Gibney:

If you are enjoying the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on whatever platform you use to listen.

Speaker 2:

Audio editing and original music by Trevor Gidney.

Trevor Gibney:

Sheldon Little handles the social media, graphic design, and of course, bad decisions. Thank you again to Holden Como for joining us for this episode. And thank you all for listening to the Dirty Chain podcast. And as always, keep your chain clean.

Speaker 2:

But get your chain dirty.

Trevor Gibney:

We'll see you in the mid pack.


Leave a comment

Please note, comments must be approved before they are published