Episode 35: Amity Rockwell - Professional Cyclist, DK200 Winner, Artisan Baker

Episode 35: Amity Rockwell - Professional Cyclist, DK200 Winner, Artisan Baker

Professional cyclist, Amity Rockwell, joins the Midpack to talk gravel, endurance racing, and more!

Trevor and Sheldon also discuss more Crusher EX, Fargo Sub 48, and their unfortunate recent run-in with a Carolina Reaper.

Breakdown:

Beers - 3:10
Crusher EX - 5:00
Fargo Sub 48 - 11:20
Carolina Reaper - 14:15
Amity Rockwell - 19:52

Trevor Gibney:

Man, we've talked beer and peppers. Very little cycling on this.

Sheldon Little:

Well, Amity is a foodie, so why not?

Trevor Gibney:

Why don't we just get right into our conversation with Amity? She-

Sheldon Little:

My future business partner.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, coffee shop-

Sheldon Little:

She's a barista. One of the best jobs I've ever had.

Trevor Gibney:

Barista, come on. She's a barista, but she's also-

Sheldon Little:

She's a person. I'm just-

Trevor Gibney:

An incredible cyclist, an incredible endurance athlete, and man, what a great conversation. I want to thank Ian Boswell, who got us in contact with Amity through their Wahoo partnership, and it was just so cool to, I didn't really know a ton about her, and-

Sheldon Little:

Yes, she came on the scene pretty rapidly.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes. Let's just jump right into it. Here's our conversation with Amity Rockwell.

Sheldon Little:

How's it going today?

Amity Rockwell:

It's good. I didn't realize you guys were in the same place. That's cool. I did a podcast last week and it was somebody in Canada and somebody in Massachusetts or something.

Sheldon Little:

We actually started off the pandemic in different areas. We just each stayed home, so I don't know, for what? Like three months all of our interviews were remote.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, even though we're in the same city, but we just stayed quarantined, but-

Sheldon Little:

This whole podcast just came about with us drinking beers on a patio, and his wife was just like-

Amity Rockwell:

I think most of them come about that way, as far as I can tell.

Sheldon Little:

It's just got to happen naturally, and we just moved from our patio drinking beers to now we're just-

Trevor Gibney:

Still drinking beers.

Sheldon Little:

Still drinking beers.

Trevor Gibney:

It's-

Amity Rockwell:

What time is it there?

Trevor Gibney:

Hey, hold on. Just don't-

Sheldon Little:

Hey, is that judgment? I'm sensing some heavy judgment.

Trevor Gibney:

Started off on a good foot here.

Amity Rockwell:

Where are you guys?

Trevor Gibney:

We're in Michigan. It's Eastern Standard Time.

Sheldon Little:

It's afternoon.

Amity Rockwell:

I have no idea what time it is there, so ...

Sheldon Little:

It's 12:03, so we're past the midday.

Amity Rockwell:

My only rule is that I ride bikes first, and then I drink, so ...

Trevor Gibney:

Okay. I rode today, so I get a drink beer. Sheldon-

Amity Rockwell:

Well, there you go.

Sheldon Little:

I worked on bikes today.

Trevor Gibney:

He worked on bikes.

Amity Rockwell:

Counts-

Sheldon Little:

Yes, so-

Trevor Gibney:

And just to make this all about me, which it's not all about me, but today is my birthday, so I get to drink all day.

Amity Rockwell:

What?

Sheldon Little:

Yes. Wait, cheers to that.

Amity Rockwell:

Do I get to interview you?

Trevor Gibney:

Sure. Go right ahead. It'll be a very not interesting interview.

Amity Rockwell:

I feel like that all the time. The one I did last week was with Tyler Hamilton and I was like, "Are you kidding me? Can I ask you some questions? Why are you listening to me? I literally just started riding bikes. This is backwards."

Trevor Gibney:

That would be a fascinating conversation.

Amity Rockwell:

I know. I watched the whole Lance 30 for 30 thing, and I could tell. I was like this guy has so much to say.

Trevor Gibney:

Holy cow. Yes, that was something else, so are you in California?

Amity Rockwell:

Yes.

Trevor Gibney:

How's the whole fire situation? Are you getting some of that?

Amity Rockwell:

Luckily, it's totally fine where I am. I am in Santa Barbara, which is notorious for having really, really gnarly fires all the time, but for some reason we were spared in this latest wave of things. The lightning storm, which started most of them, didn't actually come through here. We only got like five minutes of rain and that's all we saw of that, so all my family and all my friends are in the Bay Area. That's where I grew up, and they're having a time, the air quality still, it's by the middle of the day it's like go inside. Don't breathe levels, so I'm just lucky that I happened to move down here and we're not hit right now, but, you know.

Trevor Gibney:

How has that area been throughout the quarantine, and then throughout the whole ... I don't meant to start this on a bummer of a question, but-

Amity Rockwell:

Right? Everything sucks.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, but is it a good place to be centrally located and get your training in?

Amity Rockwell:

It is very pleasant. It has never been too hard, to the point where I was worried about going outside. It's pretty good. I'm very used to NorCal vibes, of everybody is fairly liberal and knows what's up, and follows the rules and stuff. And then as you creep south you encounter these people who are a little bit resistant to masks and staying inside, and all these good things, so that's been interesting to navigate and realize that I'm living with that side of things too, to put it nicely I guess, but I don't know.

Amity Rockwell:

I personally, I don't know. As far as people go who are affected or not affected by the pandemic situation, I feel pretty lucky that still, can't really do my job, because I can't race, but I can still go out and ride every day. And that's largely what my life looks like outside of racing, so that reality just really hasn't changed for me.

Sheldon Little:

In California right now, in Michigan, every race that's big has been canceled, but there were a few first year races that had small enough fields that they did these wave starts of 10 to 15 people. Are you seeing any of that over on the West Coast too, or is it just pretty much a clean slate?

Amity Rockwell:

I know there's a few going on in Utah. I just got invited to one in Wyoming, and then California has held a couple, like Enduro World Series, which makes sense to me, because you are more distanced there, and I might feel okay about that if that were the style of racing I did, where it's you go at your time and then don't have to be in a pack, but I'm definitely not in a place where I'm like yes, I want to go out and hang out with hundreds of people. That's the thing.

Amity Rockwell:

I'm at a point where I very much feel safe traveling, and I feel safe driving to Colorado or Wyoming, or what have you. I do not feel like I'm in the right to encourage hundreds of other people to do so, and I have to realize that in a position I am in now, of people looking at me and being like what is Amity doing? That's what I'm effectively doing by going to a race, is telling hundreds of people, hey, come to this race, and I do not feel good about that, so I am not racing and I don't ... It's hard to say, but I don't think I'll be racing this year.

Amity Rockwell:

I don't really see a purpose. I think we're all very much at that stages of grief that's we are at acceptance and we are making the most of the year, and doing other things, and it's some random win at some under attended race in the middle of nowhere isn't really going to boost my career to the next tier for the next season or anything, so it's I'd rather just find some projects that aren't going to hurt anybody. Go from there.

Sheldon Little:

Well, that's why we're drinking at noon.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes-

Amity Rockwell:

Exactly.

Trevor Gibney:

[inaudible 00:27:17]

Amity Rockwell:

Who knows? Is America going to exist next year? Who knows? May as well drink.

Sheldon Little:

You have that beer.

Trevor Gibney:

Well, that's a good-

Amity Rockwell:

Exactly.

Trevor Gibney:

That's a good place to end it, so thank you for talking.

Amity Rockwell:

Exactly.

Sheldon Little:

Our conclusion for 2020.

Amity Rockwell:

Nothing matters.

Sheldon Little:

Have the beer. Nothing matters.

Trevor Gibney:

If you don't mind, before we get too much further, could you just give us a little bit of a background on how you started in endurance sport and all this? I know that endurance sports run in your family a bit.

Amity Rockwell:

Literally.

Trevor Gibney:

Literally. Man, this [inaudible 00:27:55] so could you just, how did you start with the cycling and all that?

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. I will keep that brief, because I think I've gotten into that plenty of times, but my parents run. My parents actually met through a club that was based on running really stupid long distances, so my parents both were ultra runners and I grew up in that environment, of if you don't know what to do you go running, or if you have any extra energy you go running, or if you're bored or if it's the weekend, or if anything you go running. And so I started running with my parents pretty early, but not really seriously.

Amity Rockwell:

It was more just like hey, we're going out to these trails or whatever. You can come if you want, and then I dabbled a little bit in swim team in middle school, but ultimately signed up for cross-country and track and field in high school. Did all that. Was mediocre. Loved it. Loved it like crazy. Most of what I did was because of running, and because I loved running I would plan my high school life around that, and then college I actually went to University of Hawaii, because they're a D1 school, but they're at the bottom of the D1 ranks in running, and so I was like cool.

Amity Rockwell:

I can go here and be important, whereas if I'd chosen to go to a UC or something I would have definitely been B-team and not actually gotten to race much, so that was a strategic decision on my part. To actually, I don't know, feel like I was necessary to a team and to explore the running thing further. Pretty quickly realized that I wanted to run much longer distances than they let you run in college. The longest cross-country race is a 7K, so I started running farther and farther on my own.

Amity Rockwell:

Started hanging out with the ultra marathon people on Hawaii, there's a pretty good club there. Paced a few of them for legs of very different ultras. Raced a couple 50Ks on my own. Was all the way in and having a great time, and was pretty okay at it. Was definitely better the longer the race was and figured that out pretty quick, and then classic runner to cycling story. Just got plagued by all these chronic injuries and a little [inaudible 00:30:28] some GI distress, and some foot problems.

Amity Rockwell:

It's everything you hear from every runner who now rides bikes. That was me, so I took what I thought was a month of and met a bunch of people who were really into cycling, and never really looked back I guess. Got caught in this whirlwind of riding farther and farther, and actually getting to do it with people, which was really new for me as a runner, because runners are the most antisocial, in the best way. You have running clubs and stuff, but ultimately you're alone out there, whereas cycling I was like wow, I can just sit behind you and have a nice time here, so yes.

Amity Rockwell:

Got talked into doing a coast ride a few months into cycling, which is this big ride from SF to Santa Barbara over three days. 130, 140 miles a day. Did that, so fresh, such a newbie. I'm sure it pissed off a lot of people, not holding wheels right [inaudible 00:31:32] all this stuff, but I learned a lot and that made me feel, I don't know. It just made me feel good, because I did okay. I wasn't dying and a lot of people were dying, and I was like maybe I'm good at this, but yes I got talked into racing.

Amity Rockwell:

Did really well obviously, in the lower categories and in road cycling. This was pre gravel, which is crazy, because this is I'm talking five years ago, so it's insane to think of how much has changed just in the scene itself, but pre gravel. There were little races, but people were riding road bikes or cyclocross bikes, and gosh, yes.

Amity Rockwell:

Got pretty disenchanted with road cycling about my second year in it, but that was right when you saw stuff like Grasshopper get a little more popular, and those were right in my area, and Belgian Waffle Ride, and then had a good friend who was really prescient in a way, and was like, "Hey, gravel's going to be a thing. You should come to gravel races. They're pretty exciting," so he convinced me to go to Gravel Worlds and Crusher in the Tushar. Yes, and steamrolled from there.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes. Thank you for sharing that. I've read it before and you've said, you've told the story before, but I think a lot of us have a similar progression from running to cycling, and both Sheldon and I are recovering runners, and I will never go back to run again.

Sheldon Little:

Yes. Meniscus surgery was enough for me.

Amity Rockwell:

I feel very blessed to have half quit before I really did myself in, because I still run probably twice a week. I love it. It is truly my first love in a sense, to where when I'm like you need to do something and I'm like god, I don't want to ride my bike. It's I can go running and that's really nice.

Trevor Gibney:

You mentioned four or five years you've been cycling. You mentioned that big coast ride that you did, and people may have thought, well, she's a newbie or whatever. Did you find it difficult just on a technical side of things, to get into the cycling sphere, or did you just dive in and learned quickly?

Amity Rockwell:

I don't know. I think it's really hard to have any perspective when you're in it. I definitely for the first year was really, really good at going uphill and really bad at going downhill, and realized that and made myself work on some things. Learned to definitely really enjoy the technical side of it, and I think that's been the appeal of gravel for me too. Is that it's not 100% about your engine. My favorite races are always the ones where it's like hey, do you actually ride on dirt in your normal life or are you fresh of the pavement here? So yes. I don't know. I think it was actually a large part of the appeal. The draw for me was that I had something to work on besides just absolute fitness all the time.

Sheldon Little:

Now, did you go from road to gravel or did you go road, mountain, gravel, or where did mountain biking come in?

Amity Rockwell:

My first bike race was actually Grasshopper, which is 'gravel'. It's 80% road, 20% weird single track. I'm so sorry. I'll be right back. I have to take a loaf of bread out of the oven. This is so on brand for me. Wow. It's not done yet. I need 10 more minutes. I'm sorry. That's very unprofessional. Where were we?

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, the first race I did was the Grasshopper, and that was I just kept coming back to that, because for me once I decided to take it seriously it's a that point the clear path was through road. Through upgrading through all the categories, doing some bigger races, getting noticed by a real time, like a continental team. Like Raleigh or like it was Team 2016 at the time, but those kind of people. There wasn't really a like, well, if I take gravel really seriously I can end up with a career. That wasn't a thought going through anybody's mind at that point, but those type of races were always what I came back to. That I actually enjoyed myself and road was what I did, and just feeling like that was what I was supposed to do, but yes.

Amity Rockwell:

I always tell the story about going to [inaudible 00:36:39] my second year racing and having the worst time ever, and coming out of it really, really depressed. And then I was already done in SoCal and the following week signed up for the Belgian Waffle Ride, just because a friend was like, "There's this thing. You should come," and I did great there and I had the best time of my life, and I was like oh dear, I might have to quit road racing. I was just incredibly lucky that my personal timing was exactly the same timing that gravel exploded, so ...

Trevor Gibney:

That was a question of mine, and I see it in quite a few athletes. It's a very, the stars aligned, and at least here in Michigan road cycling is declining, but gravel cycling is of course on an up, just like everywhere else, but then you have these real opportunities where athletes can be, can support themselves and be supported full-time. Are you a full-time athlete? Is this is the first year, right?

Amity Rockwell:

This was going to be my first year. It was going to be the year of literally just riding bikes, and traveling around and racing bikes, and headfirst into that, because last year for the first half of the season I was working probably 20 to 30 hours a week as a barista, which is just what I've done as a day job for the last five years, because it pairs really well with running, because you can pair with cycling.

Sheldon Little:

I was a former barista and it was one of my favorite jobs of all time.

Amity Rockwell:

I miss it so much.

Sheldon Little:

It was so much fun.

Amity Rockwell:

I miss it so much. I just literally have these little fantasies about just getting to work behind a machine again, and serve nice drinks and talk to hundreds of people a day.

Sheldon Little:

I would love to run my own coffee shop. That's the dream.

Amity Rockwell:

If you want to get out of Michigan we can talk. I don't wish to move to Michigan. This is not about you anymore. I would love to. My plan B, if I suddenly get really slow or something, is to just get a really sweet little truck and an espresso machine, and show up to races and make coffee for people, because-

Sheldon Little:

Yesterday morning, I went to, or not yesterday morning. Two days ago, went to one of our local Farmer's Market and there was a guy with an old bread delivery truck that he had turned into a rolling coffee shop, and he did fire-roasted coffee and it was great, because it was-

Trevor Gibney:

Onsite?

Sheldon Little:

No. He roasted, but he's got-

Trevor Gibney:

Okay. That's amazing.

Amity Rockwell:

Illegal.

Sheldon Little:

He's got his espresso machine and everything, and his coffee was some of the best coffee I've ever had.

Amity Rockwell:

That's wild.

Trevor Gibney:

That's fun.

Sheldon Little:

Yes, it was so good.

Amity Rockwell:

Anyways.

Trevor Gibney:

So you are, this will be your first year of being a full-time athlete all the way into it, but I find people find gravel different ways. They go into it, because they love gravel or they see that opportunity, or gravel finds them in an odd way. How is your relationship to gravel? Is it something that, what is the opportunity to race for you? And so it's like here's where it is. That's why I'm going to race there, or is it I just love being out on dirt roads? Or a little bit of both. It doesn't have to be either or.

Amity Rockwell:

I think the overwhelming factor for me is, well, distance, and it's the fact that the men's and women's race are the same race. I think it's really, really hard to have a perspective as a guy on a bike, but as a female if you show up to a local women's road race you're often sitting there with maybe six or seven other women, if you're lucky, and your race is at best two thirds the distance of the men's race. Usually half, and that just didn't suit me at all, and I found it really depressing, and to think probably a lot of people do, and I could have been like it's on me to change this.

Amity Rockwell:

I need to inspire a bunch of women to come out to road races and stuff, but I didn't really see myself personally benefiting from road racing in any way, to the point where I was like I don't know why I would talk anybody into doing this, because I was bored and left wanting at the end. And in all these strange places where I guess race organizers can afford to shut every road down and pay 50 bucks, but ... Yes, whereas you size that up next to a gravel race, which I was doing so directly, because I was showing up to both road races and gravel races, it's like okay.

Amity Rockwell:

I get to race 1,000 other people. I get to ride over 100 miles and I get to do so in this destination place, because you look at gravel racing. It isn't some of the most stunning areas and you can really get out there, because you're going that far and you have a more capable bike, and all these factors. To where I was like, even if I have the worst race day ever, if my body is not there, if my mind is not there, anything, it's fact of the matter is I'm still getting to ride a nice long distance in a gorgeous place, so it was like, well, obviously I would do that, whether or not I'm good at it.

Amity Rockwell:

And then you get to ride with people. You get to meet a bunch of people. You get to feel like you're in a real event. All these things, but I think by and large it was distance based for me. Show me a road race anywhere that's 200 miles or 150 miles, or even 100 miles for women is a stretch, so ...

Trevor Gibney:

I think, I guess that makes sense with your endurance background already, you'll be looking for an endurance sport in that sense, or in cycling. Other people, I often wonder, gravel now has been compared to the mountain biking of the '90s and how big mountain biking was then, and so I often wonder if people like Ted King or Stetina, if they would go the mountain bike route, if it was the '90s, instead of ... Well, because gravel didn't exist, and so if they left road biking, and then came back and wanted to just do another thing, if they do mountain biking, or if gravel just speaks to them so much, and mountain biking is just a little bit too out of the ordinary.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. I don't think gravel is a defined enough thing for it to be anybody's thing per se. It's this just all encompassing thing, where I feel like for me it just covers so many different territories, that literally the common denominator is distance and-

Trevor Gibney:

And maybe that's the success of gravel too. It doesn't have to be-

Sheldon Little:

It's a lot of gray area.

Trevor Gibney:

Sure, and gravel in Michigan is going to look different than gravel in California, is going to look different than gravel in Colorado. Sheldon did a ride last year, which actually just happened this weekend.

Sheldon Little:

Yes. It was two days ago.

Trevor Gibney:

Lake City Alpine, and it was branded a gravel race, so he flies out there with his gravel bike and everyone's on full suspension bikes.

Sheldon Little:

I ended up blowing out a rim with three and a half miles to go, and I had to run a 5K in cycling shoes.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, so the definition of gravel is fluid I guess, if you will, depending on where you are.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, and I think it's a vibe thing too. I can't speak for '90s mountain biking, but I think those were still 'races', whereas I think you see the pros like Ted and, well, Pete's really competitive, so I don't really put him in the retiree group, but these retired cyclists can show up to gravel races and pretend that they're not serious anymore, and pretend that they're done with competition and all these things, and then casually win or casually not win, but it still I think just feels different. Probably from a competition standpoint, to where it's like an event instead of a race a lot of the time.

Sheldon Little:

Sure.

Trevor Gibney:

And I think that's another, a pro for, a positive for gravel. Is that it can be competitive for people. It can be everything for someone. It's a lot like, it's compared to a marathon race or something, where's there's pros that go out, but then you're still in the same big group of people, and I can go run a four and a half hour marathon, but it's still the same day and the same marathon. Same course that other people, like a guy that did a 218 or something.

Sheldon Little:

The interesting thing also, with gravel, going from we talked a little bit about the road race world, is you can almost, it's more of a lifestyle where athletes can even, you don't have to absolutely podium every single time to be 'famous' in the gravel world, and that's the interesting thing, because people enjoy the gravel lifestyle I guess I'm trying to say.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes. Well, like you said, a vibe. It is a vibe, for sure.

Sheldon Little:

Yes, that vibe, the gravel-

Amity Rockwell:

It's a vibe.

Sheldon Little:

It's a very interesting take, and I think without social media we wouldn't see gravel growing the way it has, because it just has this 'vibe' to it that really is drawing people in, because you can go to these events. You can be someone extremely fast like yourself, and line up with Trevor Gibney or I, and at the end of the race-

Amity Rockwell:

Well, yes, but even speaking as an extremely fast person, it's for every good race I have, for every race where I'm actually upfront fighting all these people, I probably have three or four races where I'm literally mid pack. Hanging out with people like you. I'm just kidding, but-

Sheldon Little:

We are the Michigan Midpack.

Amity Rockwell:

Wow. That's catchy, but no. And I do, I like to hang out with all these random people, and we get to know each other, and we share snacks and things. All running-

Sheldon Little:

We got to know Kae Takeshita from Panaracer.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. Oh my god, I love her.

Sheldon Little:

She's from the Chicago area, but she comes to Michigan all the time, and it was at this Lowell 50, it's a fall road race or gravel race that we have here in Michigan, and all of a sudden I was riding next to her, started talking to her, and then after the race, because we both had the blue Panaracer Gravelkings on, we just started talking. I was like holy cow. This is somebody in the world and we just start talking, because-

Amity Rockwell:

She's legit.

Sheldon Little:

She's a character too.

Trevor Gibney:

It is the ... We can wax on this for probably too long, but it is a vibe, but it is that community. Gravel has a lot of-

Sheldon Little:

It has a welcoming pool, compared to road.

Trevor Gibney:

Sure, and there's a lot of things that it helps foster, and it does help foster community for sure. Just the way that it just organically comes about, and the races are community based and all of this. I have a question I've been asking people, and the listeners to this podcast probably, they either like the question or not, but whatever. I'm going to ask it to you. In terms of events, and in terms of riding your bike and endurance, you have competition and you have adventure. Those two can either be, you can look at them differently or they can work together, and I'm just wondering how you look at competition and adventure, and as you approach cycling is it adventure and competition or is your adventure aside from competition?

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. That's actually, that's funny you ask it, because I feel like for me this whole quarantine pandemic time has really brought into focus just how much racing does actually matter to me, because I've spent the last probably three or four years being like I don't really care about racing. Racing is just what I do, so that I can go ride my bike in my day life and get things for free. Turn it into something real.

Amity Rockwell:

It was very much I race, so that I can casually ride more freely, and go on these adventures and do it for myself, whereas I certainly know a lot of people, like my friend Colin Strickland, who literally rides to race. Every ride he goes on is to be better at the next race, and that was never my mindset. I was like, "I can't even imagine living that way," and then-

Trevor Gibney:

She's checking her bread right now, by the way.

Amity Rockwell:

I'm so sorry. This is the worst timing ever.

Sheldon Little:

I am curious, what kind of bread are you making?

Amity Rockwell:

Oh man. It is a sourdough bread, obviously, with dried apricots and an oat porridge. I'm getting pretty elaborate these days. It's 70% wholewheat. We could have a whole different podcast about bread, but this isn't a bread podcast, so I will spare you guys.

Sheldon Little:

That's now our open sequencing, is talking about bread.

Trevor Gibney:

Just a bread podcast.

Amity Rockwell:

I'll start a bread podcast, if that's okay.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, you should.

Amity Rockwell:

I'm all over the place this morning, but ... Yes, and so I always insisted that it wasn't about racing, and then I had racing taken away from me. I'm like why am I riding bikes?

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, like where's the motivation?

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, and so it's definitely been this forced reckoning of, wait, I actually really, really care about racing and that's a huge motivator for me, and it's only easy to say it's not when I can take it for granted, but I think it's also been healthy in a sense for me, of then having to go back when I first started riding a bike and being like, well, what was making you go on these crazy rides then? What was getting you outside? It's 100% circled me back to I really, really love this and that's why I do it, and results are secondary, and I feel like I can actually say that from a genuine place now, whereas I was probably saying that all last year, but then living by my successes and failures in racing.

Trevor Gibney:

I think that's one thing that we've said over and over again, is a positive take from COVID, is that we've been forced just to approach cycling or approach life in a whole different way, and then things like cycling, where maybe it's been all about competition. We've had to stop and say, well, maybe this is just ... It helps us fall back in love with what we've been doing all along, which is riding a bike, and maybe we had a different relationship with the bike last year, but now the relationship with the bike is a little bit different, but then it helps us long for the days of racing and-

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, and I feel very silly even elaborating on this, because I've been on a bike for so short a time. It's like how many cycles and whatnot can I go through really? Because I'm still ... At the end of the day, I'm still 100% a newbie, so who knows? I don't really know much. That's why I know I did well last year. I won a big race, but it's ultimately I still feel so awkward being on all these podcasts and talking to all these people, as if I'm some gravel expert. I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I learn so much every year still that it's I'm still in this phase of figuring it out, so yes, not an expert.

Trevor Gibney:

I like the ... The great thing about adventure or approaching things with adventure is it can bring you back to a time where you were on an old BMX bike when you're a kid. It's not necessarily when I started racing, my first season of racing. It could be when I rode to the store when I was 14 years old, to ... It's as raw as it can get. Just really falling in love or back in love with the bicycle. Just using it as just a fun tool, a fun toy basically.

Amity Rockwell:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.

Sheldon Little:

It enables you to stop caring as much what your computer's saying, and being able to stop at and overlook, and take the picture that you want to put up on Instagram about your ride, and less about just what your Strava says at the end of the day.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, and that's always been me. I take months off at a time from Strava, and as much as Wahoo has tried I will not consistently wear a heart rate monitor or talk about my numbers, or I don't even have power on any of my bikes right now, which is probably the least professional thing I can say, but I don't care. I really don't care. I can see it making in a difference in a very high level, very hard, fast road race, where it's I have this much to spend. I've got to spend it at exactly the right time. No room for error, but I'm like it's gravel. Just go hard, or don't, but I don't know. I don't know how people get so wrapped up in the numbers, even mid pack people. They're like I hope this power will be this many minutes and this whatever, and I'm just like I have no idea what my FTP is, so ...

Trevor Gibney:

You mentioned last year winning a big race, and definitely last year you had a lot of success, and a question I had or I have is with success comes a lot of responsibility, and you mentioned this earlier. If you go to a race now, you have, maybe you're telling hundreds of people come to this race, even though maybe it's not the most responsible thing to do, but you have a responsibility to be a voice for sponsors, and then you have a responsibility to be a voice for maybe a cause or something else, and you put up a pretty powerful Instagram post a few months ago, about the changing of the race name in Kansas. I don't want necessarily want to talk about that, but I do want to talk about how you, now with your success, maybe you have a bigger voice and maybe now you are a larger role model for people, and is that a difficult thing for you to grasp or is it something easy to go into? How are you dealing with that?

Amity Rockwell:

I certainly had a heck of a time in the months following DK last year, where I had to talk to all these people, and my overwhelming thought was just I'm going to mess this up or I'm going to say the wrong thing, or nobody prepared me for a time when people actually wanted to listen to what I had to say, because I don't usually say much. Or worry what people think or all that, and it was it just shot me into this place of what are people going to think about me? What do I say? How are people going to take this?

Amity Rockwell:

All this stuff, but I think, I don't know. I also feel guilty complaining about it, because it's a very lucky position to be in. I've certainly worked for it, but I definitely got here a lot faster than I think a lot of people do, and I think a lot faster than I anticipated, so I definitely put myself through this crash course and I guess always just trying to speak from a, I don't know. A healthy perspective and a good point of view, but I'm struggling how to put it.

Amity Rockwell:

I ultimately feel lucky to be somebody that people are asking these things, and so many people are talking to and so many people are listening to, because I think overwhelmingly the faces of gravel up to this point has been largely old white dudes. And that's never going to be healthy for the future of any sport, and I think that's been the face of cycling for so, so long. And I think just being somebody in a younger generation as to most of the previous important people in the sport, or people who are getting interviewed, people are talking to.

Amity Rockwell:

It's just I'm I think a little bit better in touch with, I don't know. Just the change that everybody wants to see and almost this feeling of obligation to just create something represents everybody, and is truly open to everybody. We talk about gravel as this welcoming discipline and a diverse field, and all these things, and I'm like I don't know what diversity you're looking at, but we can do so much better.

Amity Rockwell:

Not even trying, and I think what has been so, so encouraging is that just even in this last season, in 2019, there were so many races that made this massive push for getting women involved. Like BWR was even doing a one for one at one point, where if a woman bought an entry they got a free woman's entry-

Sheldon Little:

That's amazing.

Amity Rockwell:

To bring their friend, and I'm like that's amazing, and I talk about this with my partner too. If I start a race I'm opening up as many women's spots as I can fill, and only one man gets to enter per woman entered, so the women's entries determine the number of men's entries, and then we have actual parity, and then we can talk about parity. Instead of saying parity and being like *25% women. That's not parity, and we're making, even just in a year of people caring about that, of people talking about it. Of people being fired up and being like what can we actually implement to get here more women out?

Amity Rockwell:

We've got so many more women out, which just proves all those people wrong, of there just aren't women out there, and I think you get into that same dangerous territory when you talk about actual diversity. It's like you ran into these people being like, well, we didn't know any black people who rode bikes, and it's like shut up. Just this exact same kind of sweeping changes can be made to just encourage a more diverse field I feel like, or to make it more accessible, or to make their path there a little easier, because their initial path has been so much harder.

Amity Rockwell:

I think it's just this wake up call where the people in the sport, the people like me with the actual power to call up a race director and be like here's what to do. Yes, I do feel like it's my job to try to do something about that, because it's really who else? Do you expect all these retired people to do it? I don't have faith that they will, but I feel like I don't know anybody else my age or younger in this sport who would fight me on that. I think we all want the same thing, and so to just be able to come out and be like yes we want this I think is absolutely crucial to it happening.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, and I think a lot of people appreciate that you are doing that, and I know a lot of other people are wanting that and doing that, but it does take someone that has that voice, that has that success to maybe get some things changed, or at least have some of these causes heard.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, or at least put the voices that we're not listening to at the front, and that's something I definitely always feel like I could do better at. Is just lifting up other people, actually listen to them. Like I said before, I really don't know what I'm talking about in a lot of situations, so ... I'm optimistic about gravel, because I do feel like as disciplines go gravel is still so, it's just a democracy and there isn't a governing body, and so the people who determine the rules, the people who determine what's cool or what's happening or what's not, that's all just based on how much people like it or how much the community as a whole deems it important, and I think that makes it an especially useful tool for checking things. New things, so ...

Sheldon Little:

This was a question I had in my head a half hour ago. I did want to ask you a bit about, so pre March of this year what was your 2020 schedule going to be looking like? Before everything just went out the window.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, so I obviously had, you prioritize races. This is something I learned two years ago, so that as well, but as a professional you're supposed to prioritize races. Make a list at the beginning of the year and be like I care most about this one. I'm going to so called peak at this time, and so obviously for me this year had to be DK as that number one, and I actually felt pretty confident in that, because the course last year really suited me.

Amity Rockwell:

It's Kansas. I always come out of it being like I could have climbed more, but the crux, which is where I came out in front, was this series of really steep hills towards the end, and I'm like that's perfect for me. Some nasty thing, right? When everybody's dying. Perfect, and so that was my number one, and then actually what is funny to talk about, because it was also supposed to happened and didn't.

Amity Rockwell:

I've been riding mountain bikes a lot more, and I think a lot of it is my tendency to do well at something. Then immediately move on and be like okay, well, what can I do that I'm terrible at? That's always been my mindset, so I started riding mountain bikes I guess a year ago now. Was really bad at it, to be honest, but liked it enough to be in a place of I want to compete a little bit, so my number two race on this hypothetical list was Leadville, which a lot of people joke about as being the first gravel race, so that speaks to its technicality, but what I saw was-

Trevor Gibney:

More climbing for you.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. What I saw was a really long, really climbing intensive race at altitude, and I was like yes. I really want to go do all that, and it was also a way to I guess broaden what I do as an athlete, and not just be in this teeny little hole of a gravel cyclist, so it's like, I don't know. That feels a limited to me.

Sheldon Little:

It sounds like we need to get you out here for Marji Gesick.

Amity Rockwell:

What's that?

Trevor Gibney:

That's then you don't want to know, I guess.

Sheldon Little:

Jeremiah Bishop called that-

Amity Rockwell:

I do now.

Sheldon Little:

The hardest one day event in North America.

Amity Rockwell:

I trust JB to speak the truth.

Sheldon Little:

We personally have not done it. I don't mountain bike, Trevor Gibney does mountain bike, but-

Trevor Gibney:

Dabble.

Sheldon Little:

It's 100 mile up in Northern Michigan, and it is sadistic to say the least, from what we hear, so Marji Gesick.

Trevor Gibney:

Is it a 12 hour finish?

Sheldon Little:

13 hours gets you a belt buckle.

Trevor Gibney:

So 13 hours is a quick one. People do it in 24.

Amity Rockwell:

DK, my time at DK was 12:59, so I'm used to having my butt in the saddle for that long. If it's true mountain biking, I'll probably be walking a good 20% of the time, so ...

Trevor Gibney:

Is it safe to say that Leadville maybe was one of your, what excited you for this season?

Amity Rockwell:

Totally. Yes, because I can look at Kansas and be like, well, I've done this twice. I've won this once. Yes, and still very much excited about it I guess, but it is I think it's safe to say familiar at that point, and Leadville was this great unknown of, and that's what I love. I think that's what a lot of people who do this love. Is the big unknowns that you end up with. Yes, and so Leadville had me very excited, and then I was also just doing all the main gravel races, sprinkling of new ones, and then was going to try to squeeze a couple of the Epic Rides in there too, and really, really challenge myself. Yes, just do something different.

Amity Rockwell:

I also thought it'd be really nice to just show up to a race and not immediately feel pressured to win it, which has become my norm unfortunately, in gravel, of what I experienced post Kansas win. Was I've come to a race and immediately people would be like, "Well, are you going to win?" Leave me alone. Maybe I don't feel like winning today, but you can't say that, so mountain biking was this nice little window to be like, well, nobody expects me to win this. I'm terrible at mountain biking, so I guess that's all next year. Although now I really don't have any excuses, because I've had a whole other year to work on my skills and actually come out of it saying I'm a mediocre mountain biker, but we'll see. Next year definitely expect a healthy mix of mountain biking and gravel.

Trevor Gibney:

Now, it's not as long as Marji Gesick, but we have a very famous mountain bike race in Michigan, Iceman, and-

Amity Rockwell:

Really trying to get me to Michigan.

Trevor Gibney:

Why not?

Amity Rockwell:

I've heard of Iceman. Didn't Kabush do that on a gravel bike?

Trevor Gibney:

He did.

Sheldon Little:

Yes.

Trevor Gibney:

He did it on drop-bar, yes.

Amity Rockwell:

What a crazy man.

Sheldon Little:

He won it two years ago on a gravel bike.

Amity Rockwell:

What a crazy man. I'm good friends with Geoff. He's wonderful.

Trevor Gibney:

It would be probably a different riding style, because it's 30-some miles and just all out the whole time, but-

Sheldon Little:

Last year was a 30 mile cyclocross race, because it was so muddy and it was an absolute disaster of a course the entire time.

Amity Rockwell:

That sounds like something I'd be into.

Trevor Gibney:

It is. I think we love to talk about Iceman and we love to, there's another big race, Barry-Roubaix, in Michigan, and-

Amity Rockwell:

I've done that.

Trevor Gibney:

We love talking about these two, just because it's more than just the race itself. It's just it really brings out the whole Michigan community and people from all over, and it's just a party.

Amity Rockwell:

I've heard the legends of Iceman. When is Iceman?

Trevor Gibney:

It's in the first weekend of November, which it was canceled this year.

Amity Rockwell:

Okay. Got you. I've certainly, that's one of those races that you hear the legends and you're like that's someday, which is funny, because I definitely felt that way about Kansas when I first started racing gravel. I was good friends with [inaudible 01:10:16] and he had just won it during the gnarliest weather year ever, but he just lives up in [inaudible 01:10:24] I was in the Bay at the time, and people would talk about it as this very impossible, unreachable thing. This thing you did when you were really good. When you really knew what you were doing in gravel, and were very experience in all this stuff, and you're like yes, you go to Kansas. You do DK200.

Amity Rockwell:

It was for me those first couple of years I was like that's crazy. I was like that's a big race. I was like maybe some day I'll do that race, and then I got the opportunity to do it two years ago and definitely went in still just fricking terrified of, and I don't even know what I was scared of. I can't even pinpoint it to this is what I was worried about. It's just larger than life I guess, in a sense, to where you're like ooh, DK, but you do it and you're like wait, really? That's what I was worried about? I don't know. Maybe Iceman is worse than it sounds, but for me Kansas I was like really guys? That wasn't that bad.

Trevor Gibney:

As you're saying that I do wonder, you've described yourself as a newbie, which you're not. There's no way that you're a newbie. You are experienced. You're an experienced cyclist, but for someone who is getting into it and wants to start racing, what kind of words of wisdom can you, whether it's a man, whether it's a woman, whether it's anyone, do you have any ... I don't know. Do you?

Amity Rockwell:

Do I have advice? I don't know. I think it is such a personal thing for me, and I think for everybody talking about these distances and these efforts, it is just largely personal and perspective based, and I am incredibly lucky. I cannot express how lucky I am to have grown up in a household where I knew my mom had run 100 miles before, that kind of thing. Where my perspective of, well, is that this bad ass thing to do, or is that adventurous, or is that a hard thing?

Amity Rockwell:

My perspective has been skewed from the beginning, to where if I ride 50 miles I'm like, well, could have ridden more, or like whatever. It's not a big deal to me, whereas you pull somebody off the street and you're like, "I rode my bike for 50 miles." They're like, "Holy shit, 50 miles," and it ends up just skewed depending who you talk to, who you listen to, who you look up to, and then there's social media and all of it. All this stuff.

Amity Rockwell:

Really, it's just about you, and I think that's been also what I continue to take away from it. Is even during the pandemic you see all these people doing these really cool things and working on these projects, and riding Everest and all this bullshit, and I can only get caught up in that so much, because I'm never going to Everest and I don't want to Everest, but it's so easy to see somebody Everesting and be like should I Everest?

Amity Rockwell:

No. I don't want to, and so it's just I think you're always going to end up in a really good spot if you just truly pursue it for yourself and come out of every day being like, okay. Well, what do I enjoy about this? What do I like? Go do that. Don't do what everybody else is doing all the time, because I don't think that really leads you to, I don't know, finding a lot of satisfaction in it, or certainly not for me. I only ended up riding really long distances and taking my bike off the pavement, and all these little things.

Amity Rockwell:

I did that all for myself, just out of curiosity of how far I could push myself and what I could do on a bike, and just what interested me, and it's just be selfish. That's my advice. Be selfish.

Trevor Gibney:

I think that's great advice, and I think that's a good place for us to leave this.

Sheldon Little:

Yes, we'll talk later about-

Amity Rockwell:

It's somehow been an hour. This always happens to me in podcasts. I start out with I don't talk that much. I'm not a really talkative person, and then I'm like oh dear, it's been an hour.

Trevor Gibney:

This is-

Sheldon Little:

I'll talk to you later about this coffee shop. I like this idea.

Amity Rockwell:

Totally. Oh my gosh. Yes.

Trevor Gibney:

I do have a quick question though. Are there any upcoming secrets that you can let us know? Is there going to be a new Rockwell Canyon Bike coming out, or is there going to be some big sponsorship?

Amity Rockwell:

I'm afraid I'm not that important yet.

Trevor Gibney:

You can just make it up. Just lie to us.

Amity Rockwell:

I have a few things. I have a little video series with Monster Energy coming out, which makes me sound way cooler than I am. Monster has surprisingly been an amazing partner in all this. They actually got in touch with me at Belgian Waffle Ride in 2019, so before Kansas I guess, I was already on their radar, of this person rides really far and is somebody we want to support, but they have consistently been a very involved sponsor, which is rad, and-

Trevor Gibney:

They've been doing a lot for a lot of cyclists recently, which is-

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. They sponsor a domestic team. They've sponsored STG gravel team for a while, and then what I find so cool about it is they actually a product I use. They actually make the Hydro beverage, which is a perfect racing product. If I made a drink to race with it's that what I would make, because it's BCAAs, which I used to take in pill form before that drink, and sugars and electrolytes, and it's just so easy. And it doesn't bother my stomach, and most things do, so that has been awesome. To actually be able to use this.

Sheldon Little:

I'm not familiar with that.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. It's just Monster Hydro, so the people I always tag in my posts. It's an offshoot of the Monster Energy brand. I think it's great. It comes in all these flavors and they all taste like Otter Pops to me, so it's basically drinkable candy, but I see them in gas stations all the time. They're out there, but definitely worth seeking out if you have a race coming up, or a hard effort. I totally rely on them.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, so I have something coming out with them that we just worked on pretty recently, and that's a little video series with myself and some of their other athletes, and I just had that little Canyon video come out. And then as far as actually competition based things go, I already said this in my last podcast, so I guess I can say it again. I am attempting SKT of the White Rim in probably about a month, but weather depending.

Trevor Gibney:

So speaking of mountain biking, right? You ride a mountain bike for that, I assume.

Amity Rockwell:

I will be on a mountain bike, yes.

Trevor Gibney:

Great.

Amity Rockwell:

I'm talking to Stetina about it, because he's got his eye on it as well, and he actually recon-ed it on a gravel bike and was like, "Don't do that," so I'm taking it from him. I will be doing it on probably the Canyon LUX, which has been my cross country bike this year.

Trevor Gibney:

Okay.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, I'm doing that. We're not setting a date, because you have to wait till it rains and the wind has to be perfect, and all these little things, but I'm excited to lay down a fast time for that, because women haven't been really doing that, so excited to put that on the map, and then if that goes well might go after some other ones.

Trevor Gibney:

Very cool. Well, we thank you so much for joining us. Your morning, our afternoon, and this was great. It was great to-

Amity Rockwell:

I'm going to get a beer right after this.

Sheldon Little:

Yes.

Trevor Gibney:

Do it.

Sheldon Little:

Beer and bread. What else do you need?

Trevor Gibney:

And since you agreed to it, we'll see you in Michigan for sure, for Iceman and for Barry-Roubaix.

Amity Rockwell:

Totally. I've been meaning to do Barry, because everybody's like this is the actual biggest gravel race. Every time you're like this is the biggest, they're like, "Actually, in Michigan."

Sheldon Little:

The party afterwards is epic.

Trevor Gibney:

Yes, it's pretty great.

Sheldon Little:

That and Iceman are two known for-

Amity Rockwell:

Yes. Thank you for reminding me about Iceman, because I will for sure put that on the schedule now. That sounds excellent.

Trevor Gibney:

Amity, thank you. Thank you for doing what you're doing.

Sheldon Little:

It was great meeting you.

Amity Rockwell:

Yes, totally.

Trevor Gibney:

Thank you for talking with us.

Amity Rockwell:

Totally. I will talk to you guys again soon I guess, hopefully at an event, whenever those are happening.

Trevor Gibney:

Hopefully. Yes, please.

Sheldon Little:

Have a great day.

Amity Rockwell:

Okay.

Sheldon Little:

Bye.

Amity Rockwell:

Bye.

Trevor Gibney:

Bye. The Dirty Chain Podcast is a Michigan Midpack Media production in partnership with KOM Cycling, the source for your bike accessories and necessities.

Sheldon Little:

Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook @dirtychainpodcast, email dirtychainpodcast@gmail.com, or call our hotline at 616-522-2641.

Trevor Gibney:

If you are enjoying the podcast, please leave us a rating or review on whatever platform you use to listen.

Sheldon Little:

Audio editing and original music by Trevor Gibney Gibney.

Trevor Gibney:

Sheldon Little handles the social media, graphic design, and of course bad decisions. And a huge thank you to Amity Rockwellfor joining us for this episode, and as always, keep your chain clean.

Sheldon Little:

But get your chain dirty.

Trevor Gibney:

We will see you in the mid pack. (singing).